Wagner No. 11

JaredS

Member
Been a while. My father in law found this for $40 in PA and grabbed it for me. Cleaned it up today. On the main site it indicates that this pan should be pre-1890s. Sometimes the main site differs from opinions I get here, so I am wondering what you guys think? Blue book seems to indicate a value around $100, but lumps all the pre Wagner Ware logo skillets together, and I wasn't able to find a sold example of this skillet on eBay, so any idea as to worth? It's in quite good condition, with only a 1/16" or less of a minor downward warp in the very center of the pan. Someone in Amish county took care of this one!

Thanks!

image by twillightkids, on Flickr
 
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Shouldn't be anything on the manufacturers page about Wagner being pre-1891, which the company itself considered its beginning. Since patterns were not changed outright, this marking probably existed from then to a few years after. Good chance it's copied from an Erie as well.
 
Sorry, I misread the Trademarks page of the main site. It says 1890s; somehow I misinterpreted the "Wagner Arc: 1891-1910" as meaning the straight logo came before that. I take your post to mean that the straight block logo was in production coincidentally with the Arc logo? So the pan could be anywhere from 1891-1910 or so?

Also, I think its definitely cast from a reclaimed Erie mold. It looks remarkably like (read identical to) my second series Erie #10, of course without any Erie trademark (and larger). It even has a notch in the handle rib, exactly like the Erie. I never did figure out what that notch indicate. I even thought there was a good chance of finding a ghost under the old seasoning after removing it. No such luck, unfortunately. I know ghosting doesn't add collectible value for most, but I love the story in a ghosted piece. Also, I don't think Wagner bothered with filling in the pan number on the mold. The "11" looks very Erie-ish.
 
Wagner Manufacturing Co. - Sidney, OH (1891-1959)
Wagner Block (1890s)

1890s would mean 1891 to at latest 1899. The date ranges are best estimates, of course.

Too bad your Erie isn't an 11 also. You could measure them to see if the Wagner is ~ 1/8" smaller.
 
Iron shrinks 1/8" per foot as it cools, so a pattern will be larger than the pan it makes by that factor. If a pan is used as a pattern, the recast or copy will be smaller by that factor.
 
1890s would mean 1891 to at latest 1899. The date ranges are best estimates, of course.

Too bad your Erie isn't an 11 also. You could measure them to see if the Wagner is ~ 1/8" smaller.

If anyone has a #11 second series Erie and would measure it for me we could compare. I know that the Wagner is significantly larger than my #10 Erie, so unless the 10-->11 size increase in the Erie branded skillets is very large I don't think it will be there.

I was under the impression that Griswold sold a lot of their early patterns to other manufacturers as they changed series. As such I assumed this would be an example of an Erie pattern used by Wagner. Is it more likely that Wagner used an actual Erie skillet as the pattern that they adjusted the mold on after the mold was formed?
 
It would make no logical sense for a major manufacturer to give even a minor competitor, let alone a major one, a leg up by letting them have even obsolete patterns. We see Griswolds with Griswold ghosts, which tells us they altered and reused their expensive-to-make patterns for decades. Most likely is an Erie skillet being used by Wagner to create a pattern in aluminum which was then altered to fill in the competitor's markings and then to add their own.
 
Interesting and logical; on the other hand, that might be looking at things through 21st century glasses. Wagner in the early 1890s wouldn't have been seen as a competitor, rather as a startup. And I don't really know how businesses saw other businesses in other states as competitors at that time. I do find it interesting that so many of the foundries at the time (turn of the century-ish) produced Erie clones (Wagner, Favorite, Wapak, etc.) and that (as far as I know) very few clones were made of Griswold's later skillets, at least not ones that aren't obvious and made by small foundries. It suggests to me that either all of these early manufacturers copied Griswold's Erie skillets (particularly the first 3 series or so) which would be very logical and didn't bother changing their skillets as Griswold evolved (as many of them continued to produce outside heat ring, Erie-like skillets well after Griswold was producing the skillets we think of as Gris skillets today) or that Griswold at one point sold old patterns to other foundries and then stopped that practice as they realized they were helping their competitors. If the former case is correct as Doug posits then it would be really cool to find out if there were ever any cease and desist letters or other court action brought by Griswold against the other manufacturers.

If someone can give me a measurement on a #11 Erie we can figure it out!

Oh, also, the blue book doesn't list the earliest Wagner skillets like mine. It gives ~$110 for the slightly later Wagner, Sidney O skillets. Any idea on value for the skillet? I'm assuming about the same, but I'd like to know what anyone has seen these at recently. Like I said, I couldn't find any sold examples on the Bay.
 
Measurements on the Wagner: Across narrowest portion - ID 12 1/16", OD 12 5/16"; from spout edge to spout edge OD 13 3/16". No one with a #11 Erie out there?
 
Bear in mind that in addition to a #11 Erie, it would also need to be one from the same pattern as the one used to make the copy was made from.
 
Cool news! Here is some information posted to an inquiry on another forum.

I have a Second Series ERIE #11 skillet that measures as follows: Spout-to-Spout outside diameter @ 13-5/16"; inside diameter @ 13-1/8". Outside rim diameter @ 12-7/16"; inside rim diameter @ 12-1/4". Overall length of the skillet @ 17-5/16". Hope this information helps to answer your questions. Best regards.

For my Wagner the dimensions are StS: OD - 13 3/16", ID 12 7/16; RtR: OD - 12 6/16", ID - 12 2/16", and overall length of 17 3/16". This means the Griswold is larger by StS: ~ 1/8", RtR: ~ 1/8", and overall length: ~ 1/8".

Although this is not conclusive unless we could determine if both pans stemmed from the same original pattern, I think its fairly strong circumstantial evidence that the Wagner was copied from a production model Erie and not from a second hand pattern acquired from Erie. Looks like, once again, Doug nailed it.
 
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